< Architecture meetings

18:00 to 19:00 UTC on 16 July 2014, at #wikimedia-office connect.

Requests for Comment to review

  1. Requests for comment/Vertical writing support

Summary and logs


Meeting summary



Meeting ended at 18:57:49 UTC.


Action items

  • group working on ASL needs someone to help with the CSSJanus improvements
  • brion to look into the cssjanus provisionally
  • YairRand to propose at wikitech-l next steps for this RfC after Wikimania
  • brion to report on cssjanus progress to wikitech-l somewhere in the next few weeks


Action items, by person

  • brion
    • brion to look into the cssjanus provisionally
    • brion to report on cssjanus progress to wikitech-l somewhere in the next few weeks
  • YairRand
    • YairRand to propose at wikitech-l next steps for this RfC after Wikimania


People present (lines said)

  • YairRand (81)
  • brion (63)
  • qgil (22)
  • slevinski (13)
  • GunChleoc (11)
  • Nikerabbit (10)
  • MaxSem (9)
  • tesh (6)
  • wm-labs-meetbot (3)
  • aharoni (2)
  • YuviPanda (1)


Generated by MeetBot 0.1.4 (http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot)

Full log

Meeting logs
[17:59:11] <YairRand> the meeting starts in a minute, yeah?
[17:59:21] <brion> that’s the schedule i’ve got yes :D
[17:59:25] <qgil> hi, one or two, I will facilitate it
[17:59:36] <YairRand> great
[18:00:25] <QueenOfFrance> what's the meeting about?
[18:00:33] <YairRand> Vertical writing support
[18:00:40] <QueenOfFrance> oh cool
[18:00:53] <qgil> ok, just finished a meeting, landing here
[18:01:44] <qgil> brion, you're here. good. can we start? Tim-away ?
[18:01:59] <brion> i think we’re good to go
[18:02:07] <brion> it’s a bit early for tim
[18:02:17] <qgil> (or late)  :)
[18:02:18] <qgil> ok
[18:02:20] <brion> :D
[18:02:26] <qgil> #startmeeting
[18:02:26] <wm-labs-meetbot> qgil: Error: A meeting name is required, e.g., '#startmeeting Marketing Committee'
[18:02:51] <qgil> #startmeeting Architecture RfC meeting
[18:02:51] <wm-labs-meetbot> Meeting started Wed Jul 16 18:02:51 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is qgil. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
[18:02:51] <wm-labs-meetbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.
[18:02:51] <wm-labs-meetbot> The meeting name has been set to 'architecture_rfc_meeting'
[18:03:06] <qgil> #link https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Architecture_meetings/RFC_review_2014-07-16
[18:03:17] <YairRand> So, vertical writing support in Mediawiki.
[18:03:21] <qgil> Alright, this we have one topic to focus
[18:03:44] <qgil> #topic Vertical writing support
[18:03:50] <qgil> #link https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Vertical_writing_support
[18:04:06] <qgil> YairRand, all yours
[18:04:10] <YairRand> People who stand to benefit from support for vertical writing include the millions of people whose native language is a sign language, Inner Mongolian speakers, and many speakers of Chinese, Japanese, and Korean.
[18:04:17] <YairRand> (CSS spec for vertical text is at http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-writing-modes/#vertical-intro )
[18:04:25] <YairRand> Vertical text is supported by IE8+ (with partial support in 5.5-7), Chrome, Safari, and Opera 15+, but is not yet supported by Firefox. (Mozilla Bug: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=145503 )
[18:04:34] <YairRand> (Some of these have moderately buggy support, but there aren't any really serious issues as far as I can tell.)
[18:04:43] <tesh> تحذير
[18:04:43] <tesh> warning
[18:04:43] <tesh> you may be watched
[18:04:43] <tesh> do usa&israel use the internet(facebook,youtube,twitter, chat rooms ..ect)to spy??
[18:04:43] <tesh> do usa&israel use the internet 2 collect informations,,can we call that spying??
[18:04:43] <tesh> do they record&analyse everything we do on the internet,,can they harm you using these informations??
[18:04:43] <YairRand> In order to support vertical writing, CSSJanus needs to be extended to be able to support vertical text, and scripts need to be modified to work with the different page direction.
[18:05:01] <YairRand> A lot of scripts access or modify direction-related styles which need to be changed in a vertical text environment. For example, width needs to become height and vice versa, top <-> left, bottom <-> right, margin-top <-> margin-left, and so on.
[18:05:03] <qgil> tesh please respect our meeting
[18:05:10] <brion> YairRand: what’s the behavior in Firefox? is it sorta legible or totally broken?
[18:05:17] <YairRand> totally broken
[18:05:22] <YairRand> doesn't react to the styles at all
[18:05:24] <brion> heh ok
[18:05:27] <YuviPanda> qgil: is a spambot, has been flodding other channels recently. kickban would be appropriate
[18:05:43] <brion> worst case we devise a browser warning for firefox until they get vertical support in :(
[18:06:22] <YairRand> Even more difficult to deal with is that many scripts call direction-related functions upstream. Example: (mediawiki.toc.js) clicking on the show/hide button in the table of contents calls jQuery.fn.slideUp/Down on the ToC. There are no horizontal equivalents of those functions in jQuery.
[18:06:35] <qgil> #info Vertical text is supported by IE8+ (with partial support in 5.5-7), Chrome, Safari, and Opera 15+, but is not yet supported by Firefox. (Mozilla Bug: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=145503 )
[18:06:41] <YairRand> not sure what can be done about that
[18:06:53] <brion> #info upstream uses of directiony things like jquery animations may be tricky too
[18:07:19] <YairRand> ah, "partial support" in IE5.5-7 refers to supporting vertical-rl but not vertical-lr
[18:07:22] <brion> those could potentially be redone with css transitions etc
[18:07:55] <YairRand> For those who aren't familiar with how a vertical-writing oriented page would look, please take a look at https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/ase/AS18517S20500S2ff00M529x544S2ff00482x483S20500519x504S18517503x517 (assuming you have a supporting browser, i.e., not firefox)
[18:08:04] <YairRand> Or, if you don't have a supporting browser, https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:SignWritingIncubator.png
[18:08:21] <qgil> #link https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/ase/AS18517S20500S2ff00M529x544S2ff00482x483S20500519x504S18517503x517
[18:08:27] <YairRand> things turn sidewards :)
[18:08:29] <qgil> #link https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:SignWritingIncubator.png
[18:08:48] <brion> YairRand: is that implemented with some javascript overrides or something?
[18:08:54] <brion> seems to render in safari :D
[18:08:56] <YairRand> brion: yes
[18:09:23] <YairRand> js actually is just loading a big manually-rotated version of vector.css
[18:09:43] <brion> #info current signwriting incubator uses some javascript/css overrides, manually rotated css. need to automate this process into RL
[18:10:18] <slevinski> The SignWriting Gadget contains the code used to transform the display. https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/MediaWiki:Gadget-Signwriting.js
[18:10:29] <brion> #link https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/MediaWiki:Gadget-Signwriting.js
[18:10:29] <brion> nice
[18:10:47] <YairRand> supporting optional vertical writing in Chinese, Japanese and Korean comes with the additional issue of needing to be able to rotate existing wiki page CSS on the spot.
[18:11:16] <brion> *nod*
[18:11:40] <YairRand> I think the easiest to start with would be just getting vertical writing to work with the ASL wikipedia and such
[18:11:43] <brion> YairRand: do we want to concentrate on the sign languages case or also include the CJK? is it simpler to do the vertical-onlies?
[18:11:46] <brion> ah perfect :D
[18:11:56] <MaxSem> did someone actually check with natives if putting page layout on its side is good for them? because monitors are still mostly wider horizontally
[18:11:58] <brion> i tend to agree
[18:13:02] <brion> ^ re starting on the sign language
[18:13:37] <YairRand> MaxSem: I haven't asked any native speakers regarding rotating the whole skin layout, no.
[18:13:50] <YairRand> but I strongly suspect that it's the best solution
[18:14:07] <Nikerabbit> I guess it depends on the language and perhaps even content
[18:14:10] <brion> otherwise tricky to do UI elements i guess
[18:14:24] <YairRand> quite
[18:14:29] <GunChleoc> MaxSem: I thnk you have a point there, especially with wide screen, but the correct writing rotation is still what a native speaker would expect IMO. Some modern screens can be rotated, so that would solve that issue anyway.
[18:15:32] <Nikerabbit> shuld we also consider doing article content and interface support as separate steps?
[18:15:41] <GunChleoc> Regardin the screenshot, the stuff on the left is from the bottom up rather than top-down. Is that by design or WiP? I'm not a native BTW, just thinking out loud
[18:16:03] <brion> Nikerabbit: hmm, that might make sense for CJK but not sure how that would work for ASL/signwriting
[18:16:21] <YairRand> GunChleoc: the left goes to the top and vice-versa
[18:16:40] <MaxSem> also, gotta have a way to REALLY QUICKLY switch the layout to the traditional one, otherwise visitors from other wikis will be lost
[18:16:44] <YairRand> since the search box is on the right, it gets moved to the bottom
[18:16:58] <MaxSem> even finding prefs is hard
[18:17:07] <Nikerabbit> brion: I guess CSS Janus work is needed for both, and that is a big chunk?
[18:17:28] <qgil> MaxSem, "Back"?
[18:17:47] <GunChleoc> OK I just thought that it looked weird to have the writing top-down and the menus bottom-up, but it that's how it's supposed to be, OK. Just checking ;)
[18:18:15] <Nikerabbit> how's the progress on getting signwriting into unicode?
[18:18:24] <MaxSem> hmm, on macs mouse wheels aren't scrolling horizontally-oriented pages
[18:18:29] <brion> GunChleoc: the menus are top-down as well; the ones at the bottom are the ones that are right-aligned in english :)
[18:18:41] <YairRand> Nikerabbit: getting it into unicode isn't strictly necessary
[18:18:45] <brion> MaxSem: use trackpad like steve jobs intended
[18:18:59] <MaxSem> steve jobs is dead
[18:19:08] <YairRand> slevinski, care to explain the current method of getting around unicode?
[18:19:13] <Nikerabbit> YairRand: I agree, but still something I would aim for
[18:19:13] <MaxSem> and my hand is hurt from using is heavily
[18:19:30] <slevinski> SignWriting in Unicode is a work in progress
[18:19:31] <GunChleoc> Oh, I get it now. Shouldn't the lillle search magnifying glass be at the top of the field though, since it's in the position where one starts typing?
[18:19:53] <aharoni> [ the only website I know that actually uses vertical writing is the site of the Communist Party of China: http://mongol.people.com.cn/ ]
[18:19:57] <YairRand> GunChleoc: in horizontal writing, is the glass at the start or the end?
[18:19:59] <YairRand>  :)
[18:20:07] <aharoni> works quite nicely in Chrome
[18:20:08] <slevinski> The SignWriting symbols themselves are proposed, but not the 2-dimensional layout.
[18:20:41] <slevinski> The current technique for SignWriting uses a lite ASCII markup. The page link above contained some of that code, called Formal SignWriting
[18:20:46] <GunChleoc> YairRand: Duh, I never noticed that you stuck the thing at the end
[18:20:52] <GunChleoc> I'll shut up now *lol
[18:21:00] <MaxSem> also, with current layout pages are oriented from left to right but english chars are displayed with right side as their "top"
[18:21:09] <MaxSem> ie kinda upside down:)
[18:21:21] <YairRand> figuring where things are supposed to be in these layouts is... unintuitive :)
[18:21:33] <brion> MaxSem: it looks a little odd, but is consistent with embedding english in CJK vertical text
[18:21:41] <slevinski> The ASCII markup is given a zero size font and the SignWriting image is pulled in as a background image
[18:21:44] <brion> keeps the direction flowing right
[18:21:44] <MaxSem> "little" :P
[18:21:47] <GunChleoc> Just turn your head to the left and imagine wou're writing from right to left, is that it?
[18:22:01] <YairRand> GunChleoc: that'll work
[18:22:39] <slevinski> The SignWriting images are created by a SignWriting Icon Server running on Wikimedia Labs.
[18:22:55] <GunChleoc> I guess what got me dorn the gearden path with the search box is the missing "Search" title, which would be displayed top to bottom
[18:23:11] <slevinski> We have an experimental TrueType font that shows promise, but it is not production ready yet.
[18:23:24] <YairRand> ah, certain browsers don't handle input boxes very well in vertical orientation
[18:24:01] <YairRand> as in, it's still sort of acting like a horizontal element
[18:24:19] <YairRand> thus, no large visible "Search" going from top to bottom
[18:24:43] <GunChleoc> Sounds like you got your work cut out for you
[18:24:44] <YairRand> ASL WP is probably going to need a custom solution to input boxes anyway, though
[18:25:16] <YairRand> I believe slevinski is working on a special input for signwriting, yeah?
[18:25:21] <YairRand> *input method
[18:26:05] <slevinski> Yes, the special input for SignWriting is a work in progress
[18:26:17] <YairRand> anyhow, major issues from the mediawiki side: rotating scripts (probably rather difficult)
[18:26:50] <YairRand> there are also minor things like that image thumbs need to assign height instead of width attributes
[18:27:03] <YairRand> (currently being dealt with using js on incubator)
[18:27:58] <YairRand> though honestly, I'd consider only the lack of CSSJanus support to be a completely blocking bug regarding the ASL WP
[18:28:25] <YairRand> everything else is pretty much inconveniences
[18:28:38] <YairRand> (on mediawiki's side)
[18:28:47] <brion> YairRand: so who’s going to work on the CSSJanus tweaks?
[18:28:56] <brion> you guys ready to do that work or you need help with it?
[18:29:18] <YairRand> I personally do not actually have the relevant skills for that
[18:29:34] <Nikerabbit> I'm bit wary when I see "custom solutions" mentioned so often. We need to ensure all relevant parts of code can handle this like they do for RTL currently
[18:29:48] <brion> #action group working on ASL needs someone to help with the CSSJanus improvements
[18:30:15] <YairRand> I hear from theDJ's summary of the arch summit that "Roan & Trevor will gladly help anyone to do this"
[18:31:29] <YairRand> one other minor issue is how to display vertical languages in interwiki boxes
[18:31:36] <YairRand> they don't quite fit
[18:31:42] <brion>  :)
[18:31:57] <YairRand> of course, sign languages in particular have a larger issue of how to get the characters to display in the first place
[18:31:58] <brion> YairRand: is there a semi-standard way of squishing them into horizontal view? (eg standard rotation)
[18:32:06] <brion> worst case: SVG ;)
[18:32:12] <YairRand> I think yes
[18:32:18] <YairRand> not positive
[18:32:22] <YairRand> slevinski?
[18:32:47] <slevinski> Horizontal is possible
[18:33:07] <YairRand> in sign languages in general?
[18:33:15] <slevinski> Some information may be lost, such as body weight shifts to the left and right
[18:33:32] <YairRand> but that generally wouldn't be relevant in a single language's name, right?
[18:33:52] <slevinski> Not for a name
[18:33:59] <YairRand> excellent
[18:34:23] <YairRand> of course, getting the image in there is still potentially an issue.
[18:34:28] <brion> #info need to work out lang name display also
[18:35:09] <YairRand> Another issue: Certain images need to be rotated.
[18:35:25] <YairRand> Is this handled by CSSJanus for ltr/rtl, btw?
[18:35:35] <slevinski> The vertical layout uses lanes (left, middle, and right) for discussions. Horizontal writing would loose the lane information as it does not use lanes. http://signpuddle.net/wiki/index.php/MSW:Script_Layout#7.C._Vertical_Layout
[18:35:57] <slevinski> Only punctuation would need to be rotated to switch from vertical to horizontal.
[18:36:25] <YairRand> I meant the mediawiki icons, actually
[18:36:35] <YairRand> arrows and such
[18:36:44] <brion> YairRand: so there’s ability to specify rtl overrides for icons which the flipping can use automatically
[18:36:58] <brion> we could probably devise a vertical extension to that yeah
[18:37:07] <brion> #info make sure icon flipping is extended to vertical as well (arrows etc)
[18:37:23] <YairRand> the override at incubator is also using manually rotated images
[18:37:34] <YairRand> not a good long-term solution :)
[18:38:01] <brion> yeah the other possibility is to apply CSS transformations but that way may lie madness ;)
[18:38:24] <YairRand> can those even be applied to background images?
[18:38:37] <brion> mmm, you can transform an entire element, that owuld include the bg i think
[18:38:52] <brion> but i’m not sure you can transform a background image *without* transforming the contents
[18:38:54] <brion> of the delemnt
[18:38:56] <brion> *element
[18:39:18] <YairRand> wouldn't work for things like the vector tabs shading
[18:39:35] <brion> hmm those should really be CSS gradients anyway :)
[18:39:51] <YairRand> or the little arrow in the "More" box, I think
[18:40:17] <YairRand> actually maybe it could
[18:40:29] <YairRand> I dunno. probably not going to be the method used anyway.
[18:41:22] <YairRand> (Hm, I feel like I missed one of the issues...)
[18:41:28] <brion> YairRand: so going forward — you are the main contact on this?
[18:41:39] <YairRand> apparently :)
[18:41:49] <brion> great :D
[18:42:16] <brion> YairRand: do you want to check in with roan or trevor about cssjanus?
[18:42:33] <brion> and if they don’t have time to poke at it right now, i’ll see if i can help
[18:43:13] <YairRand> I don't have any useful skills to add on that front, which makes me question the whole me being the main contact on this thing...
[18:43:27] <brion>  :)
[18:43:37] <brion> anyone else able/willing to take on part of that?
[18:45:46] <qgil> silence  :)
[18:45:53] <Nikerabbit> I am curious of this project, but I am not Janus expert either
[18:46:00] <brion> :D
[18:46:13] <brion> YairRand: ok sounds like you’re still point person but you need a technical liason :)
[18:46:20] <YairRand>  :)
[18:46:48] <YairRand> ah, other point: (copied from theDJ's summary) "we need a language -> rotation map, like we have for rtl/ltr directionality. Ideally we would get this information from CLDR (http://unicode.org/cldr/trac/browser/trunk/common/properties/scriptMetadata.txt), but it is not in that so we need to bolt it on top of our language data first. (the Translate/Localization team can be involved)"
[18:47:41] <Nikerabbit> I could do some small tasks and help where I can, if you come up suitable tasks, like the one above ;)
[18:47:49] <brion> awesome
[18:47:57] <brion> wonder if we can upstream that to CLDR also
[18:48:14] <brion> #info CLDR missing language->verticalness mappings, can we upstream these?
[18:48:23] <Nikerabbit> brion: prolly, can talk to Amir & Nemo_bis when we know what we want
[18:48:45] <YairRand> I already have a list of sign languages in ISO. there aren't all that many vertical languages (I think), so it might be simple enough to just build a list manually.
[18:49:00] <YairRand> (I hope, at least)
[18:49:11] <GunChleoc> Maybe you can poke the people at CLDR? They areworking on a new version at the moment
[18:49:37] <Nikerabbit> I guess it's a bit chicken and egg, but if we already use certain info in MediaWiki, that could convince and speed up CLDR processing
[18:49:53] <YairRand> hm, perhaps
[18:49:54] <brion> *nod* let’s probably start with a local mapping and then try to push it upstream
[18:50:22] <qgil> (10 minutes to go)
[18:51:03] <brion> ok i’m willing to look into the cssjanus provisionally, can take some of my research time for that
[18:51:07] <GunChleoc> Give them the info you have when you poke them, that might speed things up. I've only been ilvolved with them as a translaor so far, so I don't know how the techy stuff works. They do have a bug tracker though
[18:51:10] <brion> and will escalate to roan/trevor as necessary :D
[18:51:25] <YairRand> excellent :)
[18:51:36] <brion> YairRand: anything else we need to plan before wrapping up for now?
[18:51:42] <brion> next checkin date for the rfc?
[18:52:00] <qgil> #action brion to look into the cssjanus provisionally
[18:52:01] <brion> YairRand: oh — anyone working on this going to be at wikimania?
[18:52:10] <brion> we could do some testing there
[18:52:40] <YairRand> brion: I'm not going to be at wikimania.
[18:52:51] <YairRand> dunno regarding anyone else
[18:53:12] <brion> ok then we’ll probably plan to regroup online sometime after
[18:53:32] <brion> qgil: any recommendations on scheduling, or leave that to later?
[18:54:03] <qgil> It would be good to have a tentative date that is realistic, or some measure to make sure the discussion and work doesn't die...
[18:54:27] <qgil> YairRand seems to be quite dedicated, though. :)
[18:54:50] <brion> :D
[18:55:07] <qgil> YairRand, will you want to summarize the status after Wikimania, and find then a tentative date for the continuation of this RfC?
[18:55:27] <YairRand> qgil: sure
[18:55:50] <YairRand> I'm not sure how I'm going to find out what happens at wikimania, though
[18:55:55] <brion> i’ll probably initiall test with japanese as i am slightly better at reading that than signwriting :) but i’ll just start with the flipping code and that should apply to both
[18:56:09] <brion> YairRand: i’ll send mails to wikitech-l when i get something working
[18:56:20] <qgil> #action YairRand to propose at wikitech-l next steps for this RfC after Wikimania
[18:56:21] <YairRand> brion: great :)
[18:56:43] <qgil> Alright, anything else?
[18:57:03] <YairRand> not that I can remember at the moment, hopefully I'm not forgetting something major...
[18:57:13] <brion> great sounds like we’re about wrapped up
[18:57:21] <qgil> Thank you YairRand for a well prepared RfC meeting
[18:57:27] <brion> #action brion to report on cssjanus progress to wikitech-l somewhere in the next few weeks
[18:57:34] <qgil> Thank you everybody for your participation
[18:57:40] <brion> \o/
[18:57:44] <YairRand> Thank you very much :)
[18:57:49] <qgil> #ENDMEETING
[18:57:50] <wm-labs-meetbot> Meeting ended Wed Jul 16 18:57:49 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)
[18:57:50] <wm-labs-meetbot> Minutes: https://tools.wmflabs.org/meetbot/wikimedia-office/2014/wikimedia-office.2014-07-16-18.02.html
[18:57:50] <wm-labs-meetbot> Minutes (text): https://tools.wmflabs.org/meetbot/wikimedia-office/2014/wikimedia-office.2014-07-16-18.02.txt
[18:57:50] <wm-labs-meetbot> Minutes (wiki): https://tools.wmflabs.org/meetbot/wikimedia-office/2014/wikimedia-office.2014-07-16-18.02.wiki
[18:57:51] <wm-labs-meetbot> Log: https://tools.wmflabs.org/meetbot/wikimedia-office/2014/wikimedia-office.2014-07-16-18.02.log.html
[18:57:51] <brion> :D
[18:58:56] * YairRand leaves with giant smile
[18:59:02] <qgil>  :)
[18:59:07] <brion> yayyyy
[18:59:13] <brion> good meeting everyone :) see ya next time
[19:00:27] <Nikerabbit> qgil: thanks
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