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I have recently become very interested in the linguistics in the problem of the Indo-Aryan migration controversy. I understand in the early 19th century India was favored as the Proto-Indo-European homeland, but then after the development of comparative-historical linguistics that fell out of favour and the Southern Russian one was preferred. In fact it seems there are three major homelands. In addition to the Southern Russian one, Anatolia and Armenia both seem to be taken seriously and have academic currency.

However, I don't understand why the Indian homeland theory is excluded from all discourse and considered fringe. It seems the Indian homeland was initially the most favoured one. The flora and fauna of reconstructed PIE lexicon all seem to point to India (elephants, lion, etc.); syntactically, Sanskrit is the closest to PIE having retained all eight cases, three genders and three numbers, and the original PIE culture only is preserved by India. However, phonetically, PIE is very distant from a Vedic language, mainly because it sounds like a Centum language. So it seems syntactically it is near identical to Vedic Sanskrit, and phonetically it is very different from Vedic Sanskrit, yet still retains archaic forms, like aspirated plosive sounds, such as Bha, lost everywhere else.

However, is it still not possible PIE originated in India, the Centum branches left early and then PIE changed into Vedic Sanskrit at home? Considering that Balto-Slavic is a Satam language and it originated where PIE use to be spoken, cannot the same apply to India?

I do not mean to be antagonistic with this question. I just want to genuinely understand what are the linguistic evidences that preclude India from being a homeland of PIE. All I know so far according to linguistics it is impossible, but I don't know why it is impossible.

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    I strongly recommend "Archaeology and the PIE Homeland Question" (pp. 39-49) in Fortson 2010 Indo-European Language and Culture https://www.wiley.com/en-us/Indo+European+Language+and+Culture%3A+An+Introduction%2C+2nd+Edition-p-9781405188968 – Alex B. Jul 29 '21 at 17:46
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    Where and what did you read about a PIE reconstruction for 'elephant'? – Alex B. Jul 29 '21 at 17:50
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    Not sure what the PIE reconstructed form is, but it seems to be a common IE word: Vedic Sanskrit: Ibha; Latin: Ebha; Old Icelandic: ulfalde; Hittie; La-hapa Gothic, Polish and Russian: Ulbandus. Although I understand thee is a debate whether this is an Arabic loan word, but how could they all adopt the same loan word. – Linguist Enthusiast Jul 29 '21 at 18:19
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    What is Russian: Ulbandus? Where did you find this? – Alex B. Jul 29 '21 at 19:15
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    Similarly, what is this Latin "ebha"? Latin didn't have clusters like "bh", and the most common Latin word for "elephant" was borrowed from Greek. I'm also not aware of any Hittite word for "elephant", and can't find one in any of my dictionaries. – Draconis Jul 29 '21 at 19:21
  • Apologies, I misspelled some words. The words either mean elephant or ivory, so elephant related. Latin ebur, Hittie, lahapa. This article discusses the etymology and the controversial origins of the word https://www.jstor.org/stable/40266925 – Linguist Enthusiast Jul 29 '21 at 19:32
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    I want you to examine - on your own - the accuracy of this claim "the flora and fauna of reconstructed PIE lexicon all seem to point to India". You can read about it in Forston first and then read the entry "elephant" in The Encyclopedia of Indo-European Culture" and think why Mallory and Adams wrote that “Neither ‘elephant’ nor ‘ivory’ can be reconstructed for PIE” (p. 177). – Alex B. Jul 29 '21 at 19:45
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    Alex.B, thank you for the recommendation, I will be sure to get it. However, in this case, all I want is pure linguistic evidence and arguments for why India cannot be the homeland. So far the discussion seems to be focusing on the linguistic paleontological dimension, but I am more interested in the phonology itself. The fact that Vedic Sanskrit sounds nothing like PIE and is satamized, is that the reason alone to exclude India as the homeland? Couldn't PIE have still originated in India, considering there are very early traces of Centum languages in the North West area? – Linguist Enthusiast Jul 29 '21 at 19:46
  • I look forward to it :) – Linguist Enthusiast Jul 29 '21 at 19:48
  • For a related question and an exposition of typical homeland arguments look here – Sir Cornflakes Jul 29 '21 at 20:50
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    A nice review article is Anthony and Ringe 2015 https://smerdaleos.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/anthony-ringe.pdf – Alex B. Jul 30 '21 at 01:06
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    there's no reason to expect the language spoken in the urheimat to be especially conservative in any aspect. In general, most Indo-European languages of a given period are all similarly conservative overall, each being more innovative in some areas, and more conservative in others. If there is a trend cross-linguistically though, it is arguably slightly in favour of the core being more innovative than the periphery, not less – Tristan Jul 30 '21 at 09:43
  • Ref: Proto-Indo-European (PIE). (for those where PIE is not readily discernable) – chux - Reinstate Monica Jul 31 '21 at 02:34

2 Answers2

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From what you state, it seems you have read the papers of people like Shrikant Talageri.

Be aware that these people who side with the OIT (out-of-India) theory are generally completely incompetent as far as linguistics is concerned. The OIT is a politics-driven agenda that tries to find linguistic arguments. Its incompetence and hysterical politicization are what makes the OIT scientifically unappealing.

To be honest, it is quite difficult to reject the OIT on purely lexical reasons, because the Hindu Kush has a somewhat moderate climate that permits a fauna and flora consistent with the words we can hypothesize existed in PIE.

That being said, the OIT makes the whole tree grow out of a leaf.
Normally, families have a radiating pattern out of their maximal center of diversity. In the case of PIE, maximal diversity is located in Eastern Europe and Anatolia.

Like it or not, Old Indian is a subbranch of Indo-Iranian, itself a subbranch of Central Post-Anatolian, itself belonging to the Post Anatolian branch. In other words, Indo-Aryan is a leaf, it's neither the trunk nor the roots.

The OIT cannot account for the internal and geographic structure of Indoeuropean languages.

Another point is that Old Indian is the only language that has substratic words coming from languages like Burushaski, unique to South Asia. If the OIT were true, one would expect Burushaski words to exist in (almost) all Indo-European languages, and it's not the case.

Similarly, Dravidian only has loanwords from Indo-Aryan, not from PIE, which means Dravidian never met PIE.

Another point is that, if the OIT were true, PIE would expand in all directions: to the East of India, the south, etc. Why would PIE only expand thru the Afghan bottleneck? and then turn westward? All this just makes no sense.

In other words, for many reasons, the OIT just does not make sense. It fails to account for what the Indo-European family is, how it's structured, etc.

James K
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When a word can be reconstructed to a proto-language, it is generally assumed that there was such a word in the proto-language. Then if the meaning of the word can also be reconstructed, it is generally assumed that there is such a word with that meaning in the proto-language. Since a word meaning "axle" is reconstructable to at least late PIE, it is assumes that there was such a word, which also implies that the speakers of the language had axles (which in turn implies that they had wheels). If we know something about the development of the wheel, we might know something about the (late) Indo-European homeland. If it were a fact that the various branches of IE led to a reconstruction of words for elephants and lions, we could infer something about the homeland, given what we also know about elephants and lions. There is good linguistic evidence that "horse" is part of PIE vocablary, and that horses were important in the Eurasian steppes but not in Iran and India, at the relevant time (see Anthony The Horse, the Wheel, and Language). This depends on archaeology, not just linguistics. Likewise, there are reconstructed words for other temperate-weather flora and fauna, which are consistent with the Kurgan hypothesis but challenge the India hypothesis.

Another form of linguistic evidence for a homeland is the existence of loanwords into the proto-language from another language, where contact existed in one location but not another. The existence of loans from proto-Uralic into PIE would be very problematic for the "out of India" hypothesis; the existence of loans from proto-Dravidian on the other hand would be problematic for the Kurgan hypothesis.

The important thing to get from this is that there is never purely linguistic evidence for an Urheimat. All such arguments rely on non-linguistic archaeological knowledge (such as whether there were elephants at the time). There are a number of argument for the Kurgan hypothesis. Then an advocate of an out-of-india hypothesis would have to counter those arguments, and advance arguments in support of an Indian origin.

user6726
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  • Thank you for that, great response. You bring some interesting points for discussion up, and I am aware of arguments from both the Out of India camp and the Kurgen camp. My intention here is not to argue an OIT case, but merely to understand the arguments against it better so I have a better grasp of this debate. It is interesting you said that the matter is not decided purely by linguistics, but if so, I would like to know to what extent is linguistic informing the evidence against OIT and to what extent archaeology. It appears the old argument of horse, wheel and chariot is obsolete now... – Linguist Enthusiast Jul 29 '21 at 23:06
  • ....in light of the new discoveries in the Indus Valley of wheels, chariots and depiction of spoked wheels. As for horses, I am aware that archaeological finds have been found of horses, but the argument seems moot to me because the Indus valley had trade contacts with Central Asia where horses could be imported. So they would have known about horses.

    Regarding sharing of loan words. This is a great point. I understand that there are no Uralic words in Indo-Aryan languages, but there are plenty of Indo Aryan words in Uralic. How can this be explained?

    – Linguist Enthusiast Jul 29 '21 at 23:13
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    @LinguistEnthusiast re: “ the argument seems moot to me because the Indus valley had trade contacts with Central Asia where horses could be imported” - I strongly disagree. If horses were imported from a non-IE culture, then the very word for that imported concept would have been borrowed from that non-IE language. But the PIE reconstruction for ‘horse’ is very solid. – Alex B. Jul 30 '21 at 00:59
  • Well when they import an animal from a non IE culture, two things can happen, they can either import the name of it too, or give it their own name. The Sanskrit word ashwa is derived from the root āśú which means quick and swift. As the horse is known for being very fast, they may have just named it the quick one. In fact, Sanskrit is particularly known for deriving semantics of a word from roots. Another example is Saraswati, derived from the root sara, meaning to flow, incidentally the name of a central river. – Linguist Enthusiast Jul 30 '21 at 01:21
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    @LinguistEnthusiast re “ or give it their own name” more data with clear examples please, when a clearly borrowed concept got its name from the borrowing language. Then I might believe you. Incidentally, do you have any formal background in linguistics? – Alex B. Jul 30 '21 at 01:30
  • Your question has provoked another question in my mind. You sound like you know what you are talking about so please help me with this. As you mentioned that if if the Indus valley people imported the horse they should have imported name too, but if that is the case what what is the origin for the word "camel" which must have had a prior non IE name? In fact, what happened to the non IE languages spoken in Central Asia and Iran? There were huge cultures existing there like the Hemand, Oxus, Jeroft etc. What was their language and their substratum influence? – Linguist Enthusiast Jul 30 '21 at 01:32
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    I can only encourage you to read more, esp. what was recommended already. Good luck! – Alex B. Jul 30 '21 at 01:35
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    FYI, the explanation for Uralic-Indo-Iranian linguistic relation is that the Indo-Iranian "homeland" was north of the Caspian, and there was a southward migration into India. – user6726 Jul 30 '21 at 01:41
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    If I understand correctly Indo-Iranian, which has been identified with the Andronovo culture, was bordering Uralic territory for centuries. In that case shouldn't the language exchange with Uralic be bidirectional rather than unidirectional? Also, shouldn't we find Indo-Iranian words in Uralic, rather than just Indo-Aryan? It seems to be a simpler explanation to say that an Indo-Aryan tribe migrated towards the Andronovo from India. This would explain why there are Indo-Aryan words in Uralic language, but no Uralic words in Indo-Aryan languages back home. – Linguist Enthusiast Jul 30 '21 at 02:19
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    "camel" as with many technological words (and domesticated animals are, at a societal level, a technology) is a wanderwort, having spread rapidly across a wide region as the technology (or knowledge of the technology) spread. In this case the word appears to have originated in Arabia from a Semitic language. The word "camel" is indeed non-Indo-European – Tristan Jul 30 '21 at 09:48
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    @LinguistEnthusiast They "may have just named it" after anything. For example they named the animal after the nose-snot sneezed out by the god who created the universe in their original mythology, which was later superseded by a different mythology and completely forgotten except for the name of one animal named after the fast-flying snot - prove me wrong! – alephzero Jul 30 '21 at 13:53
  • @alephzero, I am sorry, but what? – Quintus Caesius - RM Jul 31 '21 at 15:45
  • @AlexB. Not a ‘concept’ as such (but then neither are horses and camels), but there are numerous cases of animals and plants being introduced into a linguistic area and being given names based on existing lexemes. Vegetables introduced from Central America such as tomatoes, avocados and chillis all have Nāhuatl-based names in most languages, but not in (Mandarin) Chinese, where they’re called ‘western red persimmon/foreign aubergine’ (西红柿/番茄), ‘cow-oil fruit/alligator pear’ (牛油果/鳄梨) and ‘hot pepper’ (辣椒) using only existing words in the language. Also ‘pineapple’ in English. – Janus Bahs Jacquet Aug 01 '21 at 17:56
  • @JanusBahsJacquet Thanks for the interesting examples! Just curious, do you know more about these Chinese words? When were they borrowed? How old are those Chinese words? Is this process common in Chinese? e.g. do they also have their own native words for things like "computer" or "Internet" or cryptocurrency? – Alex B. Aug 01 '21 at 18:50
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    @AlexB. I don’t know when they were coined exactly, but off the top of my head I’d guess 1700–1800s, since so much was introduced from the West then. There are Western loans, often via Cantonese (巧克力 qiaokèlì ‘chocolate’, 沙发 shāfā ‘sofa’, 俱乐部 jùlèbù ‘club’), but Modern Chinese generally calques (电脑 electric brain = computer, (互联)网 (interconnected) net/web = Internet). Old Chinese, on the other hand, seems to have been less averse to borrowing, particularly Buddhist terms (涅槃 Nièpán Nirvana, 佛 Buddha, 梵 Fàn Brahma). – Janus Bahs Jacquet Aug 01 '21 at 19:10
  • @JanusBahsJacquet Interesting! Thanks. – Alex B. Aug 01 '21 at 19:16